Episode 91: Bread School: How to Choose Better Breads for Our Family.

Episode 91: Bread School: How to Choose Better Breads for Our Family.

In this episode . I'm taking you through Bread School and breaking down the different types of bread available, what to look for on the label, and how to make confident choices without feeling overwhelmed. Whether you have a picky eater, a fussy eater, or a child who will only eat white bread, this episode will help you understand where bread fits into childrens nutrition and how to choose the most nutritious option your child will actually eat.

Remember, feeding your child isn't about perfection. It's about making small, realistic improvements that support a healthy diet for fussy eaters and the whole family.

In This Episode

Wholegrain vs Wholemeal Bread
The Truth About Sourdough
How to Read Bread Labels
Low GI and High Fibre Breads Explained
My Bread Ranking for Families

Links:
https://nourishwithkarina.com/feedingbabies
https://nourishwithkarina.com/membership

Highlights:Introduction – Bread School: How to Choose Better Breads for Your Family - 00:00

Introduction: Episode Overview & Bread School - 00:00.116
Fond Memories of Bread and Choosing Wisely - 02:21.934
Clean Wholemeal vs. Fortified Bread - 04:39.346
Navigating the Bread Aisle & Dealing with Fussy Eaters - 06:57.890
The Goal: Choosing the Best Bread Your Child Will Eat - 09:08.780
Understanding Whole Grain Bread and Fiber Content - 11:31.020
The Nutritional Benefits of Whole Grains - 13:48.382
Sourdough Bread, Fermentation, and Anti-Nutrients - 16:12.652
Wholemeal Bread as a Great Middle Ground - 18:33.514
Low GI and High Fiber White Breads - 20:55.860
Rye, Oat, Gluten-Free, and Low Carb Breads - 23:18.520
Summary & Bread Ranking from Best to Standard - 25:37.368

Show notes

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Show Notes

Healthy Recipes for Kids: https://nourishwithkarina.com/healthy-recipes-for-kids

Free Kids Nutrition Library: https://nourishwithkarina.com/freeinfo

Nutrition Consultation: https://nourishwithkarina.com/nutrition-consultation

Bread Guide & Blog: https://nourishwithkarina.com/blog/bread

Introduction: Episode Overview & Bread School (00:00.116)
You're listening to the Easy Feed Podcast, episode number 91. Bread School. How to choose better breads for our family. Hi there, I'm Karina Savage, and with over 20 years experience feeding children, including my own, I've learnt all the secrets that busy mums need to get their children eating better and actually enjoying healthy foods. So a huge welcome to the Easy Feed Podcast.

Welcome back. It's great to have you. I hope that you are really, really well. I hope you've had a great start to the week. And yeah, my goodness, we are well into the term, aren't we? I can't believe we're already over halfway and school holidays are going to be upon us again soon. Today I wanted to chat about something that pops up very often. In fact, we've been chatting a lot about it inside my membership lately. It's bread. Okay. And bread is everywhere. Bread is

a staple. Bread is life for some of us and bread is very uncomfortable for others in those that have, you know, tricky gut issues. But bread is everywhere. And I really think it's important to understand that bread is not evil. For most of us, bread can be a really healthy part of the diet. I think, you know, I hate that word diet, but h healthy part of our life.

I think bread's been given a really bad rap over the years, especially in relation to weight loss. And sure there, you know, there are some that don't do well with a lot of white carbs and bread. But on the whole, bread, especially for kids, is a really integral part of their day. And so it's the foods that they're having all of the time that are the ones that we need to be paying attention to and making sure that we're giving them half decent bread. So

It's not loaded with rubbish and it's gonna give them a little bit of nutrition. So I want to talk about bread today. I was gonna call this podcast episode bread education or bread school. I think we landed with bread school as possibly a little bit more easy to understand. But yeah, anyway, let's dive into the bread aisle because well actually it's not necessarily the bread aisle. It could be the soup, could be the bakery. Because often people will get their bread from say Baker's Delight or a or a bakery.

Fond Memories of Bread and Choosing Wisely(02:21.934)
Especially if you're needing to or wanting to go for those more specialized kind of sourdough-y style options. Having said that, there's now plenty of sourdough available in the mainstream supermarkets. it takes me back down memory lane though, when my nonna was around and I used to go into the the David Jones Adelaide Rundle Mall. We used to go downstairs and back then, so I'm talking about twenty or would be mmm.

Now I'm now I'm showing my age, it would be probably more like 30 years ago now. And back then, like mine and I used to go into David Jones and and into the mall and get her hair done. And I used to go in there sometimes and meet her. She didn't get her hair done in David Jones, by the way, but it was in the mall at a hairdresser. And then we would meet up and she would go down, we'd go down to this food court down in in Ronda Mall in the David Jones. And I remember there was this specific bakery. It was in the corner.

And it made the most beautiful bread. Beautiful bread. And I remember what I used to get is this brioche roll, literally all for myself. It was like a decent size brioche. It wasn't like a sorry, it shouldn't say roll. It was a loaf. And I she would buy it for me and I would just literally eat it straight out of a paper bag, like holding it with my two hands because it was that big. Like

couldn't hold it with one hand. It wasn't like a roll size, it was a loaf. It was this brioche loaf. But it was so delicious. And I must say I've always loved bread. Like I'm I'm a pretty big carb person. Love bread, love bread and butter. And you know, it's one of those things that, you know, they say, what would you, what were the three, what would be the three foods that you take to an island if you're stranded on an island and

Bread and butter would be one of mine because we'll probably I don't know if that counts as two or one, but you know, it's right up there because I love bread. I love bread. And yeah, I just have such fond memories. I think, you know, it yeah. And I don't love bread just because of the memories from mine on. I love bread because it's just delicious, but I do have really fond memories and and it relates back to Brioche and David Joe's.

Clean Wholemeal vs. Fortified Bread(04:39.346)
So there you go. Shout out to all the the people that are living in Adelaide. And that's not there anymore. It's gone, it's been replaced. but yeah, I'm sure you can find decent, delicious brioches still somewhere. but yeah, still remember that to this day. So the bread is delicious and bread is to be enjoyed. But as I said, if kids are having bread all of the time, you know, multiple times a day, then we need to be choosing bread that is going to be.

Nourishing them. So it's not like the brush that you get, you know, once a fortnight, once a month. Like if they're having bread multiple times a day, we need to make sure that it's a good bread. You know, we need to make sure that it's not loaded with nasties that they are consuming four or six slices of a day. Because especially if you've got really active kids or teenagers that just go and get another piece of bread and vegemite or toast and vegemi, you know, they start to really

It starts to really add up in terms of the number of slices that they have per day. So what do we even look for? You know, the other day I was asked inside my membership, which is is a better option. Is it better to have wholemeal bread that's, I guess, cleaner that has cause we were chatting about this new brand of bread that's just come out and it's it looks really good. And one of my members posted the the picture of it inside a group and said,

Hey, what do think about this Karina? And I said, Well, it looks great. And then a number of the other members are like, Yeah, yeah, we're we're about to try it too. We've seen it in the shops. And one of the mums said to me, Is it better to have a clean wholemeal bread like that that doesn't have any of the additives or preservatives? Or is it better to have the more processed bread that is fortified with iron that may have more additives? And I said to her,

It's actually better to have the cleaner wholemeal option because naturally whole grain wheat contains iron. So naturally, that bread will contain iron anyway. So sure, going for the fortified one, you're getting iron and zinc. And they're two nutrients that are commonly low in fussy eaters. But from a cleanliness perspective and from a general health perspective, it's probably better to go for the cleaner.

Navigating the Bread Aisle & Dealing with Fussy Eaters (06:57.89)
bread option, which doesn't have any additives. It's a very clean ingredients list. And you're still going to get the benefits of the whole grain and the fiber. Well, whole grain ground up is whole wheel. if it's whole wheel, you're still going to get fiber and whole grain benefits there. So yeah, it's a great question and something that I think can be a little confusing. So let's dive into the different types of bread.

And how to choose the best bread for your family? Because honestly, it can feel like a nutrition maze. When you stand there in the supermarket and you look at the fifty million different options, it's like, Whoa, what do I choose? Do I choose the high fiber white? Do I choose the the one with the hidden grains? Do I choose the low GI one? You know, and sometimes

The choice is not yours because your child dictates what they will and won't eat. They'll only eat white or they they won't eat grains, but they will eat whole meals. So sometimes we lose a little of the choice just because our kids are fussy. So and I've certainly kind of found that over the years with I used to be able to get grainy bread into my kids, but then we sort of somehow along the way lost the grains and moved over to whole meals. So look, that's fine. Pick your battles. I mean, I think I can get

Some grains into my son, especially sometimes. My daughter's very textural. She does not like the bits. She is a little more, I would say, sensory with her feeding preferences. So she just doesn't like bits. I'm like, okay, sure. But she will eat whole meal sourdough. So I'm like, great. Well, let's go with that. It's like pick your battles, right? So yeah, there's whole grain, there's wholemeal, there's white, there's high fiber white, there's low GI white.

There's sourdough, there's rye, there's oat, there's gluten-free, there's low carb, there's high protein, and then there's all the bakery-style breads. And then there's the brioches and the list go on. I'm not really going to talk about brioches anymore today, apart from my little story, because they're not typically the breads that you have every day for kids. So I'm going to focus more on the the day-to-day breads and what

The Goal: Choosing the Best Bread Your Child Will Eat (09:08.78)
And what they contain and which ones are better choices. Because at the end of the day, we're just aiming to choose the most nutritious option that your child will actually eat. Okay, so the goal is to choose the most nutritious option that your child will actually eat. Now, before we go any further, I just wanted to let you know, and I just need to double check the actual web URL, but I'm pretty sure if you head to my website, I'm just typing it up madly as we speak.

There we go. If you're head to my website, nourishwithkarina.com, my name's spelled K-A-R-I-N-A. Then if you go vlog forward slash bread. And then you will find my blog on bread, where I summarize everything that I'm talking about today. So that will be a useful resource for you once you finish listening to this podcast episode. And I must say,

Please leave me a review. If you're listening to this on Apple or Spotify, wherever you're listening, please try to leave me a review. It just helps the podcast get out to more parents. So we can help more parents. That would be amazing. So as I said, bread can absolutely be a part of a healthy, balanced, there's that word again, diet eating plan for kids. I try so hard not to say that word. but at the end of the day, we just need to look.

At the whole picture. So when you're going to grab that loaf of bread off the shelf, the kind of things that I look for or think about are: is it whole grain? Is it wholemeal? Is it highly processed? And as I said, sometimes that decision or that choice gets taken away from us by the type of bread that the child will eat. So you kind of have to temper these suggestions and guidelines based on your child and your family, but knowledge is power and knowing.

The better choices and the worst choices is going to help you choose between two options for your child. So it may be that you're choosing between two white breads, one that's iron fortified and one that's not that Laurent GI and higher in fiber. So just choosing between those two, you could still be making a better choice, especially if you're choosing the one that doesn't have the preservatives. So there's always generally going to be a choice still, depending on how fussy your child is.

Understanding Whole Grain Bread and Fiber Content (11:31.02)
And hopefully this information helps you make more powerfully healthy choices for your children and for your family, because you're eating the bread too. Well, chances are you're eating the bread too. So I look at how grainy is it? I look at the fiber. So I look at the fiber per hundred grams. And generally, I mean, on the better ones, you're going to get probably about six grams of fiber per hundred grams, sometimes more, but that's a really good.

number the aim for about six grams of fiber per hundred grams because you know often it's lower than that. It's interesting actually because when they make whole bread, they actually ground up all the grains. And so whole bread often has higher fiber content than the whole grain bread. But at the end of the day, the whole grain bread is still a better option. Anyway, we'll get into all of that. But looking at the fiber per 100 grams is a good one. And I've alluded to it already, but it's really important to look at the ingredients list.

How long is the ingredients list and does it contain a lot of additives, preservatives, emulsifiers or gums? So how processed is this bread? And then at the end of the day, the bottom line, the number one question, and then at the end of the day, the number one question is, will they eat it? And so that's there's gotta be factored into it, right? As one parent to another. I I know that completely.

Now, the best bread is not always going to be the one with the biggest health claim on the front of the packet. The front of the packet is always just the sale. It's always the marketing. The back of the packet tells the truth. So if you see no artificial colors or flavors, there's every chance there's going to be a preservative in it. So just be mindful of the deception that occurs. You're probably already mindful of it because I'm preaching to the converted.

If you're listening to me, you care about nutrition and you like listening to really geeky detailed stuff about food and nutrition. So you're probably already aware of that. But if you're not, then just really be careful because at the moment we just cannot trust what is on the front of the packet. Okay, let's start with whole grain bread. Whole grain and grainy bread, they're usually my top choices. And that's because when we're talking about whole grain bread, whole grain means

The Nutritional Benefits of Whole Grains (13:48.382)
All the parts of the grain are present. You've got the bran, you've got the germ and the endosperm. Okay, so and so when we're talking about whole grain, we're talking about the entire part of the grain being present. The bran, which is the outside, the germ, and the endosperm, which is the inside. So what this means is you are getting all of the valuable nutrition from the outside, the middle, and the inside of the grain.

And each part has really valuable nutrition. So the outside part is higher in fiber, more protective. The inside, the endosperm is higher in things like amigas. And the middle part is higher in carbohydrate and starch. But when you consume whole grains, they naturally provide more fiber, B group vitamins, vitamin E, magnesium, zinc, iron, antioxidants, and other plant compounds that you don't get.

When you're having white refined bread. Whole grown breads are usually more filling too, and better to keep our kids' energy levels more sustained throughout the day because they do take longer to digest. So for children, this typically means better concentration and focus because their energy levels are more stable. It improves their fiber intake and their gut health benefits from that. And typically so does their bowel regularity and their bowel health.

And it can also help with appetite regulation and the microbiome in their gut because they are getting more fiber rich foods. Because fiber, or the sexy name for it is prebiotics, feed the beneficial gut bacteria, which produce important compounds that help nourish our gut lining and support our overall health. So you're choosing grainy bread for multiple reasons, not only for stable blood sugar levels and stable energy levels.

Stable concentration and focus, but you're also internally feeding the gut microbes, which in turn keeps you much healthier. So keeps your kids healthier. Now, granted, not all of us are going to be able to get whole grains into our kids. So whole meal will be the next best option. And we'll talk about that in s in a sec, but really just look for the percentage of whole grains and try and aim for a higher percentage of whole grains where possible. Look at the fiber. So actually on that, I should say on the ingredients list.

Sourdough Bread, Fermentation, and Anti-Nutrients (16:12.652)
They will typically put the percentage of whole grains present. So you can see whether it's 15%, you know, lin seeds or 16% mixed grain, whatever it is, have a look at the percentage of whole grains. So that's going to be a helpful thing for you. And then look at the fiber per hundred grams and see if you can get it over six. If it's five, it's still a good option. You want to avoid sugar in the ingredients list, and you really want to try and avoid additives and preservatives where possible.

And I know it's confusing. There's so many stupid names and numbers for these things these days, but at the end of the day, if your grandmother wouldn't know what it was, probably avoid it because it's likely to be an additive. A shorter ingredients list is always going to be better. Okay, sourdough bread. Let's talk about sourdough bread for a minute before I move on to whole meal, because sourdough bread traditionally is made using a fermented starter culture.

Now, this starter culture naturally contains like a wild yeast and lactic acid bacteria. So it's a longer process. So the true sourdough is made using this fermented starter culture, not baker's yeast, which is sometimes used with sourdough. So yeast is present in true sourdough, but it's usually that wild yeast from the starter, not the commercial baker's yeast that's added to speed up the bread making process.

And the wild yeast helps the bread rise while the lactic acid bacteria creates that like tangy flavor. And the fermentation that makes sourdough sourdough, and it makes it different from standard yeast bread, means that the nutrients are a little more activated. So this longer fermentation process with the lactic acid bacteria actually benefits us nutritionally because what happens when

There's a longer fermentation process happening. It actually helps to reduce the what they call anti-nutrients. So things that can actually bind to essential minerals and block them from being absorbed into your body. It actually helps us access more of the nutrition, more of the vitamins and minerals in the bread. So that fermentation process actually activates vitamins and minerals for our body, making it easier for us to access.

Wholemeal Bread as a Great Middle Ground(18:33.514)
And absorb the nutrition from those whole grains. So that's a really beneficial process for us. And what also happens with that fermentation process is it actually helps to lower the GI. So what that means is if you're comparing regular white bread and sourdough white bread, sourdough white bread will release more slowly into the bloodstream. So the sugar will release more slowly into the bloodstream because of that fermentation process. So

Sourdough bread is always going to be a better option if it's in the white category compared to regular bread. Same goes for wholemeal because wholemeal bread is slightly higher GI in the in the regular bread world. But when it's a wholemeal sourdough, it helps to slow down that GI a little bit. So at the end of the day, if you're choosing white, I would choose the sourdough option. If you're choosing wholemeal, I would choose the sourdough option.

If you're choosing grainy, you're probably gonna get more grains in a regular whole grain bread than sourdough, because often they don't put that many grains in the sourdough, but at the end of the day, sourdough is still a great option and the grains will be probably more activated. So look, it's kind of actually a bit of a fifty fifty there. It's really at the end of the day, whichever one you can access and whichever one your child's gonna eat. So just have a look at how grainy it is because at the end of the day, the more grains the better. But yeah, sourdough is a great option.

Some bread though, marketed as sourdough, may not be true sourdough. And if you're seeing baker's yeast and it not looking too sort of spongy with big air pockets and it doesn't really taste kind of that tangy taste that sourdough does, then it may not be true sourdough. So just be mindful about that. True sourdough tends to have that chewy nature, doesn't it? Perfect with avocado or peanut butter.

A traditional sourdough will typically only have a few ingredients on it, something like flour, water, salt, and a sourdough culture. Okay, let's move on now to wholemeal bread. Wholemeal bread is a great middle ground option, especially for children who will not yet eat grainy bread. And I love saying the word yet because it means that one day they might, okay? One day they likely will, but not yet.

Low GI and High Fiber White Breads - (20:55.86)
And that could be years, but that's okay. As I said, we're at a whole stage at the moment and that's fine. So whole mill bread is made from the whole grain still, and those whole grains have been ground up. So yes, there's a little bit of nutrition that's lost in that process, but at the end of the day, it's still really high in fiber and really high in nutrients and a good source of iron naturally. Because the grains have been ground up a bit, as I said, the glycemic index, the release of sugar into the bloodstream is a bit higher than

whole grain bread, but wholemeal bread can still be a very good option. So if you can get your child to move from white to wholemeal bread, then that's amazing. That's a great win. So I would be really happy with that. And wholemeal bread is often much better accepted than grainy bread. When choosing a wholemeal bread, I would look for wholemeal flour listed first rather than second. So you don't have white flour and then whole wheel flour. You get the wholemeal flour first. I would look at the fibre per 100 grams.

And aim for at least, you know, five or six. And aim for that five or six per hundred grams if possible. I would look for a shorter ingredients list. I would make sure sugar wasn't added if possible. And just check for those additives and preservatives. So there's a huge variety of Home Wheel bread options. Bakery options can be really good as well. And they won't have the additives and preservatives often. So whomewheel bakery bread like a baker's delight.

Could be a great option. Okay, now let's move on to Logii bread. Low GI bread has been used by parents for many, many years now. And I I think it makes us feel a little bit better about our children eating white bread because at least it's not a fast sugar, right? At least they're not getting a quick hit and then they're hungry again 20 minutes later. So low GI bread can definitely be useful from that perspective because

It is digested more slowly. They've added in a fiber that helps to slow down the release of the carbohydrate, of the sugar into the bloodstream, leading to a much slower, more gradual rise in blood sugar levels in kids. So this is beneficial from a concentration and focus perspective, also mood. You do need to be mindful though that many Logio breads don't necessarily have the vitamins and minerals that we are looking for because

Rye, Oat, Gluten-Free, and Low Carb Breads (23:18.52)
Sometimes they just add in the fiber to make it low GI, but they're not really adding in any other nutrition. And so you're really just relying on the little bit of nutrition that is in the white bread, which is really the the wheat, the whole grain that has been stripped. So the bran, the outside's been removed. Some of the inside's been removed. The it's really just mainly the middle part, that middle starchy part of the grain that's

ground up and bleached, and that's what's used to make the white flour, which is what's used to make the white bread. So there's not as much nutrition, vitamins and minerals in that white bread. They do add that fiber to make it low GI, but in terms of the overall nutrition, you're not going to get nearly as much nutrition from a bread like that. Sometimes you can find these white breads that have been

Fortified with iron and zinc and whatnot. And certainly there are some on the supermarket shelf that are good that don't have the additives and preservatives. But also there are a number of them that are fortified with zinc and iron and whatnot. And again, this is something that we talk about a lot in the membership because they they do have those additives and preservatives. And so it's really important to check that if you are choosing a white bread that is fortified,

That you are choosing one that doesn't have preservatives in it. And look at the end of the day, if your child is at that low GI white stage, I would probably just go for a bakery option if you can, or just try and find one with a simple ingredients list that didn't have those preservatives and limited emulsifiers and whatnot. Just try to keep it simple because at the end of the day, there's always nutritious partners that you can put the white bread with. So you could put the white bread with peanut butter, or you could put the white bread with.

avocado. And that's going to make a difference to the overall nutrition profile of that meal or snack. So there's always things that we can do to improve their nutrition. If they're stuck on the white bread stage at the moment, there is no judgment, there is no guilt, perhaps just try and choose a cleaner white option. And yes, if it's low GI or or high fiber, great. Start there and then try and add some nutritious partners to that white bread.

Summary & Bread Ranking from Best to Standard (25:37.368)
So high fiber white bread would be very similar to the low GI white bread because basically what they've done is they've added a fiber to help lower the GI. So when you see high fiber slash low GI or just low GI, typically they're gonna mean a very similar thing. They've added a fiber to it to slow down the release of sugar into the bloodstream. So typically it's a white bread, but they've added this fiber too. They don't typically add it to to home wheel or whole grain breads.

But it's certainly where a lot of fussy eaters are at, and that's absolutely fine. So if you're buying the white high fiber low GI bread for your child, absolutely fine. As I said, just try and put it with a nutritious partner. And if they will have nothing on their toast except for vegemite, then perhaps put something next to it that's got protein or healthy fats or fruit. At the end of the day, it's trying to have a mixed meal in their stomach that's not just white. That's what we're aiming for.

Because whenever you can add protein or fat or fiber to the white, you're always going to slow down the release of that sugar and bring in valuable nutrients. Okay, let's just move on to a couple of others. So we have rye bread. Rye bread can be a wonderful option. It's very dense. Rye can be a high fiber option and can have a lower GI. So super healthy option, but it does have a very strong flavor and it's not very.

popular, I don't think, with kids. I don't really love rye either. So I must say I don't really ever buy rye. But rye is a healthy option. Just check the ingredients list. We have oatbread as well. Oat bread can be a great choice. oats provide a soluble fiber called beta glucan. So really good for cholesterol. I must say I don't see too many oatbreads out there, but there are oat breads.

There are also low carb breads and high protein breads, but to be honest with you, just stick to the normal bread. I think the most important thing to look for is the fiber, the whole grains, the ingredients list nice and simple and clean. They're the main things. Kids don't need low carbs and high protein breads. Really, at the end of the day, I would just be sticking to the healthy, simple stuff that we were talking about. And often with the gluten-free diet.

Karina (27:49.08)
Fiber can be compromised. So it's really important if you are choosing a gluten-free bread for your child to try to find one with grains. And there absolutely are grainy options. I don't see too much in the way of wholemeal gluten-free. I don't know why, but I just don't see it. Maybe the gluten-free grains don't grind up as well, or the taste just isn't as good when they're ground up. So if your child does have celiac or for whatever reason, you're avoiding gluten.

Try where possible to have gluten-free grainy bread or pair, as I said, with a nutritious partner that's going to bring in valuable nutrients. So I hope that's given you some insight into the different types of breads and what I would look for. I guess overall my general ranking would be number one, a whole grain bread with a simple ingredients list. Number two, whole grain sourdough or wholemeal sourdough.

Number three, a a clean wholemeal bread, preferably from a bakery or either supermarket with no additives and preservatives. Number four, your supermarket wholemeal bread, but just be mindful of your additives and preservatives there. Number five, I would go for a high fiber, low GI white bread. Or that's probably where I would also put in the white sourdough. And then number six, your standard white bread. But look, there is no judgment.

Work with where your child's at and just try and find the best bread option for where your child's at. And remember, we can always put healthy stuff or healthier foods with the white bread if that's where they're at. At the end of the day, bread is an important part of our life. Well, I think it is. And so just do the best you can. The goal is never perfection, but small little improvements, especially with the foods that they eat consistently, that's where you're gonna get the best.

That's where your focus needs to be and that's all you need to do. As I said, check out my blog, nourishwithkarina.com forward slash blog, forward slash bread. And I look forward to chatting with you more next time. Have a beautiful week. Bye for now.